Talk:User Plan/Oregon Trail Strategy
OMG dis article is too coolxx Cleanup Notes / Dox's Critique You knew it was coming. Let's get started. First off (and to try and counter my reputation as a negative nancy), the good stuff. This is a much, much better offering than the Wandering article. One reason is because the concept of living a nomadic exsistence as an alternative to shelter is abandoned. Another reason is that there are many qualifiers and conditions offered, to better illustrate the conditions for which "The OTS" is practical. Another is that the paragraph breaks are very well implemented, and the article structure is well planned out. Now for the criticisms. There are really only two or three big ones. The first, and largest issue is non-compliance with the purpose of pretty much every respectable wiki out there. Zombiepedia is a website, and an encyclopedia. Just because it deals with something fictitious doesn't mean we should ignore the standards, as that hurts the overall quality of the site at every level. If we seem like a sloppy site, less people are inclined to explore the site, revisit, and participate. And trust me - this does happen. People have a certain assumed level of quality that they expect when they go to a wiki that acts like a wiki. When they see a wiki that is basically a message forum, or articles obviously written by children or people who don't care enough to do it right, they are generally less inclined to take it seriously, use it as a resource or make return visits. Getting used to these guidelines is no monumental feat. It just takes a little practice. And remember, no article is perfect, everything is a candidate for later improvement. When you post here, you contribute, you donate your content to the public encyclopedia that Zombiepedia is meant to be. As an admin, I really do try to let people slide on some of these things, because I want to encourage more posting, and proper form. Slide... but not contradict. I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere. So please, when you can, work on the "I's" and "You's". If you want a model, let me know, and I'll do a portion, and you can use that as a guide. I don't even care so much that it sounds very subjective in tone, because if you use "soft words" like "could, should, might, sometimes, some believe", then it still flows like an encyclopedia article. For the rest, going in order...... * You typoed the title of the article. By the time you read this, it will probably be fixed, but you had it as Oregon Trial, not Trail. Overall, your typoes were way down though, so keep it up. * The Intro portion needs minor clipping. I will do this, and use your own words to show how a proper intro should read. The more disclaimery things I'm going to remove, but I encourage you to play around with the templates. Somethings, I know are a pain in the neck to read up on, like metawiki code. The templates are pretty easy, and you can learn just by fiddling around. To point you in the right direction, in the editor, click the template button on the right side of the menu, click "other/magic word", and in the next window, start typying Alert. Or even Ale, since it uses auto complete. With the preview feature, you should be able to make it say whatever you'd like. You can even pick a color (that's slightly more complicated, but if it interests you, ask away) * On choosing carts - where are these carts? Does their manufacturer have a webpage or catalog I can see? I wasn't aware that you could get one like you describe other than making your own, or using an antique. Regardless, you spend a few lines about what to avoid, and no content about what to look for and where to find it. I think it needs a little more of the latter, especially since the whole venture depends on it. * I think this article needs three more sections. :* Requirements: Almost like a check list of things you absolutely need to have, or know for sure before you start out. And if you don't a survivor would be better suited battening down the hatches and making a base. Some of these things include extensive expertise on roads, back roads, and broad area knowledge. In abscence of this, a ton of recent maps might do it, but you'll still miss many back roads. I'd also put tools and a great handyman. Other things that should be there are already mentioned in the article, but I'd restate them. :* Evalutaion: Aside from the question of if a party can do it is if they should do it. The trail pioneers knew what was awaiting them in Oregon. Credible sources are much tougher to find in the Zombie Apocalypse. In Dawn of the Dead, first the fort that half of them want to get to gets overrun, then at the end, the island retreat has zombies too (in case you haven't seen it, they leave it ambiguous as to whether they survive or not - they could've gotten back on the boat, they killed that bunch, and cleared the island for themselves.) ::What I'm saying is that I think the article needs some short guidelines as to how to weigh your options, and determine if it is worth the risk or not. Like the song says... "Should I stay or should I go now?" :* Things that make it impossible. You say it's not for everyone, which is true. The longer you wait, the more zombies, and the further they spread. Starting points in, or near cities are also out. If there are vital obsticles, like downed bridges, or a large canyon, or the mountains in winter * The part about animal detection of Solanum is correct, but it really only requires a line or two, if anything at all. However, horses can be easily spooked by firearms if they didn't grow up around them. And while they might not be able to sniff out without "sleepers" without training, all animals to naturally flee from regular zombies. Several movies and World War Z mention that groups of fleeing birds often precede zombie attacks. There is just something foul and unnatural about them. So finding out how the horses do around gunfire and zombies beforehand would be essential. * Your overall strategy section mentions many more supplies than your supplies section. This should probably be changed. * The purpose and uses of the generator were not covered at all. * I am almost certain the entire idea behind use of alcohol for disinfecting and sanitizing is wrong. Alcohol has to be fairly high in proof to be an effective sanitizer. Dropping some in the water dilutes it too much to be effective. But this isn't even that big of a deal, since bottled water is in every store, most homes, and even plenty of offices (in the form of water cooler jugs). These containers (especially the transparent ones) are alot less likely to breed water borne diseases as in the game. In short, bottled water, pots and pans, liquor of medium and high proof (contrary to popular believe, the most common spirits do not make good molotovs. 40 proof doesn't burn, I've tried it. Bacardi 151 has warnings all over the bottle about flammability though.), and fire building materials are all good supplies. But the purifying bit was in the hazards section, which probably isn't right. -- Philodox 19:15, March 11, 2010 (UTC) alright baby, came back serious to fix up this article some more. you read what i wrote last time but ill reiterate just to be sure that there are no misunderstandings. water has been mixed and substituded with alchohol for thousands of years, pretty much all of human history can be wrong. Yes we have better ways of keeping water but this is in case you have to carry it in unsanitary conditions. Supplies section is short because redundency is a fault, not a virtue. dont wanna repeat stuff in other articles or already stated. c'mon man, do me a solid and tell me how to link other articlesm that will increase readershipness. tell me if my name still sucks, ill stop and thing of another name. but you gotta admit, PhiIidox was awesome. Fill-ih-docks 18:15, March 22, 2010 (UTC) :I am glad you returned to continue edits to your article. I did some research online, and I found no trace of any civilization using alcohol to purify or decontaminate a water supply in the manner you suggest - even for portable supplies. I have also never heard of it. Much to the contrary, alcohol has a dehydrating effect (on a cellular level) when ingested. Regardless, as I said before, the alcohol content of a liquid has to be very high - comparible to a wine - for it's disinfective properties to function. Please provide us with the link to one or more credible sources on your theory, otherwise, we cannot use it. :For information on using the wiki editor, please see . Links are basically handled by the chain link button on the editor. :I would move your second paragraph into supplies, so that it isn't more thorough than your supplies section. Then think about linking to those articles to avoid redundancy. :And while I wouldn't say your name sucks, I wouldn't applaud it either. PhiIodox was not awesome from my perspective. I was shocked into beefing up my password security out of fear I was hacked. Some other wiki admins I've spoken to about it would not have lowered the ban on your IP range. Security and rules aside, I don't know why one wouldn't want to carve out their own identity with their internet handle. This is an issue best left for email or talk pages. :-- Philodox 19:20, March 22, 2010 (UTC) Im not sure what you "research" consisited of (I' have to assume you googled booze, history, water and maybe boobs for good measure) but it is pretty common knowledge that booze has been used to substitute water in our history. Instead of quoting textoobks you may not have read, Alton Fuckin Brown says it himself. In that episode where he makes punch, he shows the old english way of making punch, which was nearly all booze with some lemons for scurrvy. And pirates didnt just drink rum because its fuckin awesome, they had rum because their water would get infested. Also, the jistory channel itself, the be all end all of historical knowledge in the modern world, says europe was wasted most of the middle ages because water was used for shitting but booze was prized (I think it was the modern marvels episod about bottled water). If you want a personal anecdote, I can tell you about what my grandmother has tolld me about her youth. See I'm mexican, and my grandma was dirt poor and lived in the "Rancho"(shitty ass rural area) and told me that water is a very precious commodity. She says that it is hard to carry around and store because it will infest with scum, mosquitoes, bacteria, someo assface will poop in it. Because of that they drink a lot of "Pulque" and from a young age (Pulque is fermented corn. Imagine orange juice, wiith heavy pulp, and more alcohol than most spirits). TL;DR Its all good in the hood baby. Fill-ih-docks 16:50, March 23, 2010 (UTC) : First off, I consider myself an excellent googler, and a fair history buff. I believe my research absolutely proves that your claim that this alcohol vs. water thing being "common knowledge" is entirely false. I would have found something. This is not to say my research (such as this article on Water Purification) proves it can't be done. I'm leaving that door open to you, in a manner of speaking. Typically on a wiki, when a claim is disputed, it is up to the author who put the claim up to find reliable sources to defend the claim. The burden isn't on me, it's on you my friend. : There are countless reliable, citable sources on the internet - and most of them are indexed by google. Something that is commonly accepted by historians and scientists should be relatively easy to find. Feel free to see wikipedia's guidelines on Verifiability and Sources Reliable Sources to get a more detailed grasp on what I am saying. I will run Zombiepedia more loosely than these guidelines, of course. But they exist for a reason, and I think to the majority of people reading this now, and in the future, this is a perfect example as to why they are so respected. : I would even watch the Altin Brown video, if you can find it online somewhere. Still, it sounds to me like you are saying that because the English (and in the other example, pirates) had a drink they enjoyed to quench thirst, that it was a substitute for water. This is poor reasoning, if I understand it correctly. Ingesting sea water or alcohol speed up dehydration - or dying of thirst - in an organism. Alcohol in particular strips nutrients away from healthy cells, and bogs down ones metabolic and other internal regulatory processes. This is something I know a great deal about first hand. Punch, wine, rum are all great, and very enjoyable. But they are basically biological poisons, not fuel. A shot of vodka - which is basically 80% water, 20% alcohol, and almost nothing else, is 170 calories. That means for your body to rid all traces of it from your system, your have to burn that much energy internally. A well balanced meal is around 400-500 calories. Worse still, the types of carbohydrates the liver breaks it down into are useless, and a very inefficient fuel even once stored as fat. This is why people can get fat on beer alone, but never energized by it. Alcohol poisioning is actually alcohol induced dehydration. Sea water does the same because salt, a known and endorsed preservative, sucks out the water of healthy animal cells, destroying them. I remember seeing this under a microscope in high school. This is why shipwrecked ocean drifters die of thirst more than anything else. : I too am Latino, though not Mexican, and my grandmother had a version of an orange drink called pulque (I don't think it was an alcoholic drink, but I'll ask). Still, by your own admission, you were also drinking orange juice. Juice is water stored in a fruit. But if you are saying because clean water was scarse, Rancheros, including children, also drank alot of booze to fight the impurities.... well, I very much doubt that is a home remedy endorsed by any medically recognized body - modern or traditional. : My point is that in small amounts, alcohol is too weak to purify anything, and in ample amounts, it will purify, but also remove much of the needed hydration your body needs. Because of this, alcohol has never been considered a means to treat water. I think most research will confirm this. If you cannot find sources to the contrary, I'll eventually remove those parts from the article. : -- Philodox 20:14, March 23, 2010 (UTC) : I also think it's probably better to remove mention of the Amish. It's not that it's wrong, it's that the Amish are so rare - even for most of the places and people who might employ the OTS, that it's really overkill for something very unlikely. It's like having a guide on finding your way out of a burning building, and having a big paragraph detailing one, and only one particular kind of fire escape. : Also, I don't know if you read the forum entry on User Plans, but more than likely, when you've reached a point where you're satisfied with the article, I'll move it there. : -- Philodox 20:31, March 23, 2010 (UTC) Alchohol as a Preservative look up "Grog" in wikipedia. Alchohol has been used for ceturied to preserve alchohol (especially on boats). To save you time, just start reading at origen and history. The rest doen't really matter. if the historians at wikipedia are enough for you, I guess that part is pretty much over. As for the Amish, I liked how you compared it to an article abotu escaping a fire and only speaking of one escape manner. It was awesome but I'll go ahead and keep it in there. What I will do, is google around and see if I can find someother groups, religious or like some historical societies, that create new, period tools. I know they exist so I'll just have to use the ol' google machine. About the Pulque thing, I had no idea you were hispanic (I myself am half Mexican, half Nicaraguen) so thats awesome. What my grandmother says, the one from el rancho, is that pulque is fermented Agave (my mom, the Nicaraguen is the one that said it was corn. Not sure why Id ask her about it, shes not mexican.). I likened it to orage juice, because it has the consistency of orange juice. It is, in fact, a very alchoholic drink. it pretty much ancient Tequila for very poor people. Fill-ih-docks 21:46, March 24, 2010 (UTC) :Well I'll be darned. I read Grog, and a few other pages on Grog, and you're right. Sailors started using a 4:1 rum/water ratio to purify it. Bear in mind, sailors got sick alot and died young back then. There were many reasons for this. Alot of them developed into alcoholics, regular alcohol has a way of stripping nutrients from the body, and also I don't think the grog holds algae/bacteria off forever - just extends the expiration date, so to speak. :Actually, it says nothing about killing bacteria, only algae, which I would assume is a more fragile micro-organism. Haven't been able to find what the minimum proof is to kill bacteria in water, but that other source says about 17% (Which is a damn strong wine). Rum is usually 40 proof (20%). If it's 4:1, that means the 20% is split five ways. 20 / 5 is 4. 4% ABV, or 8 proof. :But yes, I conceed it was used, and in desparation, it may be a good idea to try it. However, with modern carrying cases being plastic, and virtually airtight (and travel tends to take people across streams, past convenience stores, and into rainy weather), I wouldn't invest too much emphasis on the point. Sailors didn't have plastic bottles in the heyday of Grog. I think it is worth leaving a brief mention in that article, and maybe a small article about Alcohol. :WTF. Why have I never thought of doing an alcohol article. It's one of my favorite topics! I talk about alcohol all the time at the bar! ;) :-- Philodox 15:37, March 25, 2010 (UTC) More Booze maybe i should write a more detaield article about the use of booze as a preservative and go more in deep into it. this isnt really the article to speak to much about the use of booze and water. hte problem is that i dont know the ratio of alcohol to water. also im not sure on how to spell alcholhol. i thinkhtere one h but im not positive. wait, the article says the ratio. im on it son.l Fill-ih-docks 21:52, March 24, 2010 (UTC) This is my first time using a talk page, so bear with me if I screw up. Shouldn't a Resident Evil 3-type caravan be addressed? Modified Versions So, as I was reading through your article, I came up with a couple of ideas that are modified versions of this strategy. Both of them are things that I think would work more in a World War Z strategy. One of which has to have a smart leadership from the beginning, and the other could work pretty much no matter what. So the one that has to have a smart leadership from the beginning is one that makes use of vehicles with fuel depots and operating bases set up all across the AO (Area of Operations), which in the case of WWZ, it would be the eastern seaboard. At Yonkers it talks about armor using canister shells which acts as a giant shotgun, and how they didn't have enough ammunition so they had to switch to sabot and other rounds which had no effect against the zombies, and this is where my idea comes into play. A mobile column made up of tanks, the armor of which could withstand a zombie horde, using canister shells with other vehicles in support, such as Humvees or IFVs using anti-infantry ammunition, going up and down the eastern seaboard, keeping the zombies away from the Western Safe Zones, along with a lot of Blue Zones towards the west, and securing cities to keep up morale. I think it would work, but it might not. The infantry would have to be trained to go for headshots, and there would have to be constant resupplies from the Safe Zone, but they could also scavenge fuel from the abandoned gas stations, because I believe that the armored vehicles use diesal fuel. Again, it may work if done right. Now the second idea that could work whenever is a Oregon Trail set up by the government, making use of the Blue Zones and holdouts to allow those who didn't make it out of the infected areas in the initial rush and aren't infected to get the hell out of Dodge. It's like yours, but I believe they could have fuel depots as well to keep travelers who are using vehicles to keep going, or if they want to, the travelers can stay at the holdouts. If you're wondering how are they going to be using vehicles, cars aren't all out of gas. I remember in WWZ with the pilot talking about her experiences on the ground with Zack, that there was a man who shot himself because he couldn't handle it despite having a whole bunch of materials. A survivor, who had the nerves to, could take the car, which I believe would most likely have fuel, and go to the west until they reached holdouts or the Safe Zone. It would be dangerous, but any proper survivor wouldn't stop for Zack to take them out. And just curious, does anyone know if microwaves would work against zombies? If they freeze in winter, they must have a high water content, so the microwaves would be really effective to make them sizzle, and literally fry their brains. I think. I'm not an expert with microwaves, so forgive me if I'm wrong. FunnyGingerAlwaysSurvives (talk) 23:19, June 1, 2013 (UTC)FunnyGingerAlwaysSurvives Jan Zizka and his Carts I would like to suggest the battle tatics of Jan Zizka (Hussite leader) to this article. The paragraph below is a summary of a smashing website. (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywood/main/Hussite_Tactics_and_Organisation.htm) The carts would be chained together in a circle or square. A trench was dug in front of the carts. Shields were used to protect weak defences in the formation. Men with crossbows, polearms and pistols are put in the carts while supplies, calvary (who played no role on the battlefield), horse teams and surplus infantry behind the wall of carts. The remaining infantry were assigned to defend the portions the shields protect. On several occasions land features such as a lake or city walls were used to secure the flanks, which allowed for more carts for the offensive. Artillery and missle weapons were used on the enemy until they are forced to attack. When the enemy charges, they were attacked by the polearms. High ground was preferred because the enemy would be tired running up the hill and projectiles fired from cannons would be unable to reach them for they are far from the target, thus protecting the wagons in some way. (Although the same might not apply for modern weapons, such as rocket launchers). When travelling, the supply wagon and infantry would be in the centre while the armed carts and calvary protected them, allowing the wagon fort to be formed quickly.